Comments on: Politicians and Teachers Unions – thoughts for philanthropy http://thecivicfabric.org/2008/12/03/politicians-and-teachers-unions-thoughts-for-philanthropy/ Thoughts From the Stair Stepper Thu, 12 Apr 2012 22:13:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: John http://thecivicfabric.org/2008/12/03/politicians-and-teachers-unions-thoughts-for-philanthropy/#comment-103 John Fri, 12 Dec 2008 03:12:02 +0000 http://www.thecivicfabric.org/?p=176#comment-103 Jeff. Thanks so much again for your thoughful comments. As I mentioned in the blog teachers union are for me an enigma. I am not currently a teacher (but I was a teacher in the past) and so I miss the day-to-day. In my current position I sometimes feel like "confessor." The experience I relay are all true but sometimes I feel as though I am that proverbial messenger that people want to slay when I talk about how some people, (especially administrators) confide in me their frustration with unions. I think it is more an attitude of unions rather than the "unions" themselve. In my experience, I find schools and teachers esepcially to be working in places that are threatening environments. The entire system is based on punitive concepts and I think the NCLB contributes to that reality. When you think about it, teachers must work to have their kids pass tests. The aggregate number for the class is reported to "the administration" for assessent. If a school district performs poorly, there is a cloud of threat hovering. The worst possible outcome would be for THE STATE to take over the district (whatever that means). The report card scores go nowhere, except to the public which, if its bad enough will move from the district. The superintendent is called on the carpet by the public and the state. What a sick system. Under these circumstances, everyone is put into a defensive posture. When people are feeling threatened, they act it out typically in postures that are combative. So, in some way it all makes sense, but confirms my belief that the STATE, as the ultimate arbiter of consequense is a sick and abberated system that is one reason why education in this country suffers so much. Unfortunately, the unions and their reps who respond accordingly are all part of a system that needs overhaul. Philanthropy has a role and a responsbility to free this system from these institutional shackles. But few are willing to speak out. Jeff. Thanks so much again for your thoughful comments. As I mentioned in the blog teachers union are for me an enigma. I am not currently a teacher (but I was a teacher in the past) and so I miss the day-to-day. In my current position I sometimes feel like “confessor.” The experience I relay are all true but sometimes I feel as though I am that proverbial messenger that people want to slay when I talk about how some people, (especially administrators) confide in me their frustration with unions. I think it is more an attitude of unions rather than the “unions” themselve. In my experience, I find schools and teachers esepcially to be working in places that are threatening environments. The entire system is based on punitive concepts and I think the NCLB contributes to that reality. When you think about it, teachers must work to have their kids pass tests. The aggregate number for the class is reported to “the administration” for assessent. If a school district performs poorly, there is a cloud of threat hovering. The worst possible outcome would be for THE STATE to take over the district (whatever that means). The report card scores go nowhere, except to the public which, if its bad enough will move from the district. The superintendent is called on the carpet by the public and the state. What a sick system. Under these circumstances, everyone is put into a defensive posture. When people are feeling threatened, they act it out typically in postures that are combative. So, in some way it all makes sense, but confirms my belief that the STATE, as the ultimate arbiter of consequense is a sick and abberated system that is one reason why education in this country suffers so much.
Unfortunately, the unions and their reps who respond accordingly are all part of a system that needs overhaul.
Philanthropy has a role and a responsbility to free this system from these institutional shackles. But few are willing to speak out.

]]> By: Jeff Jaroscak http://thecivicfabric.org/2008/12/03/politicians-and-teachers-unions-thoughts-for-philanthropy/#comment-105 Jeff Jaroscak Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:06:41 +0000 http://www.thecivicfabric.org/?p=176#comment-105 John: I approach this post with caution, not with the FEARLESSNESS mentioned in your post. In my work with the KnowledgeWorks Foundation I have had the pleasure of working with many union members and leaders. Some of my interactions with them were frustrating and some were very enlightening. I think that many people lump problems with public education into large categories, unions being one of them. Certain inequities often raise the ire of union critics. Tenure protections for underperforming teachers is in the top five, as is the fact that veteran teachers make triple the salary of beginning teachers, yet the veterans often "beat the busses" out of the parking lot at the end of the school day while the beginning teacher remains long past dinner time. I suggest that while these situations might be disturbing to those who function in what they call the "real world," eliminating the teachers unions would bring little satisfaction. My point is this: The union mentality as mentioned in an earlier comment as "If its not written in the law, I won't do it" does not match my experience. I have heard numerous teachers make such comments, to be sure, but I think the comment comes from a different place. If we examine the logic behind the remark it seems to imply that there is a much higher level at which a teacher could be performing, but school policy, an unpopular administrator, or substandard working conditions causes them to "hold back." It is the "holding back" that does not match my experience. I have worked in over one hundred schools and have never witnessed a teacher holding back. The good news, and the bad news, is that teachers are doing the best they can. After spending eight years as an administrator at the middle school level, I confess that many times I thought that things would be better without union constraints. Then again, I also think that world in general would be a much better place if people would just do what I say. In all, I think that there is a place at the table for teacher associations. Absent these organizations, I am not sure that teachers would have a "seat at the table" for the school reform conversations. John:

I approach this post with caution, not with the FEARLESSNESS mentioned in your post. In my work with the KnowledgeWorks Foundation I have had the pleasure of working with many union members and leaders. Some of my interactions with them were frustrating and some were very enlightening.

I think that many people lump problems with public education into large categories, unions being one of them. Certain inequities often raise the ire of union critics. Tenure protections for underperforming teachers is in the top five, as is the fact that veteran teachers make triple the salary of beginning teachers, yet the veterans often “beat the busses” out of the parking lot at the end of the school day while the beginning teacher remains long past dinner time.

I suggest that while these situations might be disturbing to those who function in what they call the “real world,” eliminating the teachers unions would bring little satisfaction.

My point is this: The union mentality as mentioned in an earlier comment as “If its not written in the law, I won’t do it” does not match my experience. I have heard numerous teachers make such comments, to be sure, but I think the comment comes from a different place. If we examine the logic behind the remark it seems to imply that there is a much higher level at which a teacher could be performing, but school policy, an unpopular administrator, or substandard working conditions causes them to “hold back.” It is the “holding back” that does not match my experience. I have worked in over one hundred schools and have never witnessed a teacher holding back. The good news, and the bad news, is that teachers are doing the best they can.

After spending eight years as an administrator at the middle school level, I confess that many times I thought that things would be better without union constraints. Then again, I also think that world in general would be a much better place if people would just do what I say.

In all, I think that there is a place at the table for teacher associations. Absent these organizations, I am not sure that teachers would have a “seat at the table” for the school reform conversations.

]]> By: John http://thecivicfabric.org/2008/12/03/politicians-and-teachers-unions-thoughts-for-philanthropy/#comment-107 John Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:08:11 +0000 http://www.thecivicfabric.org/?p=176#comment-107 yes, yes! -The Other John yes, yes!

-The Other John

]]> By: John http://thecivicfabric.org/2008/12/03/politicians-and-teachers-unions-thoughts-for-philanthropy/#comment-106 John Tue, 09 Dec 2008 05:03:54 +0000 http://www.thecivicfabric.org/?p=176#comment-106 Teachers unions are a maligned group and I am not sure how much is popular cant and how much is real. I suppose the truth lies somewhere in-between. I do recall a book club I did at the Center for Leadership in Education with a group of teachers. They complained bitterly about their union leaders - with one saying, and I quote, "When it comes time to negotiate a contract schools would do best to get lawyers and the union leaders out of the room." I later heard a gathering of Teachers of the Year complain in unison to a US Senator that the felt as though the school teachers unions were out of touch with their realities. I just wish teachers unions would take on the challenge of how new teachnologies and ways of learning will impact schools and the teaching profession in the future. They remain stunningly silent on those issues focusing more on the most immediate needs. I was shocked to hear a union leader tell a group of us, "If it is not written in the law, I as a teacher will not do it..." I am impressed with the work of Adam Urbanski http://www.aft.org/about/officers/vp_bios/urbanski_bio.htm Teachers unions are a maligned group and I am not sure how much is popular cant and how much is real. I suppose the truth lies somewhere in-between. I do recall a book club I did at the Center for Leadership in Education with a group of teachers. They complained bitterly about their union leaders – with one saying, and I quote, “When it comes time to negotiate a contract schools would do best to get lawyers and the union leaders out of the room.” I later heard a gathering of Teachers of the Year complain in unison to a US Senator that the felt as though the school teachers unions were out of touch with their realities. I just wish teachers unions would take on the challenge of how new teachnologies and ways of learning will impact schools and the teaching profession in the future. They remain stunningly silent on those issues focusing more on the most immediate needs. I was shocked to hear a union leader tell a group of us, “If it is not written in the law, I as a teacher will not do it…”

I am impressed with the work of Adam Urbanski http://www.aft.org/about/officers/vp_bios/urbanski_bio.htm

]]> By: John http://thecivicfabric.org/2008/12/03/politicians-and-teachers-unions-thoughts-for-philanthropy/#comment-104 John Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:23:29 +0000 http://www.thecivicfabric.org/?p=176#comment-104 Sounds like a great talk! Wish I had been there. Interesting timing for this topic because I have been thinking a lot about unions as the UAW has come under fire in recent weeks. While I think everyone is entitled to fair pay and good benefits, it really frustrates me when a union's actions go against what it is that they are supposed to represent - teachers are there for the benefit of the children they teach, and any actions, rules, or regulations that put the kids @ a disadvantage seems highly inappropriate. While unions can and do accomplish some impressive things (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081215/nichols), like any institution with such influence over an industry, an old fashion, stubborn , or close-minded union can easily stand in the way of progress. My fear in the abolishment of a teachers union would be the opportunity for unfair treatment of teaching staff - the excitement lies with the greater chance for innovation and progress & a better education for students. This post made me think back on your previous posts on Clayton Christensen’s book Disrupting Class, where he discusses some of the problems that exist around unions and innovation that would bring a significant shift in the 'classic' public education model. The 'Rubber Room' seems like a pretty archaic solution to an equally intolerable situation of not being able to appropriately deal with teachers that range from ineffective to abusive; a great example of the waste and lose that can be found where highly protective and over-bearing unions meet a school district that it equally unwilling to tolerate such faculty. Sounds like a great talk! Wish I had been there.

Interesting timing for this topic because I have been thinking a lot about unions as the UAW has come under fire in recent weeks. While I think everyone is entitled to fair pay and good benefits, it really frustrates me when a union’s actions go against what it is that they are supposed to represent – teachers are there for the benefit of the children they teach, and any actions, rules, or regulations that put the kids @ a disadvantage seems highly inappropriate. While unions can and do accomplish some impressive things (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081215/nichols), like any institution with such influence over an industry, an old fashion, stubborn , or close-minded union can easily stand in the way of progress. My fear in the abolishment of a teachers union would be the opportunity for unfair treatment of teaching staff – the excitement lies with the greater chance for innovation and progress & a better education for students.

This post made me think back on your previous posts on Clayton Christensen’s book Disrupting Class, where he discusses some of the problems that exist around unions and innovation that would bring a significant shift in the ‘classic’ public education model.

The ‘Rubber Room’ seems like a pretty archaic solution to an equally intolerable situation of not being able to appropriately deal with teachers that range from ineffective to abusive; a great example of the waste and lose that can be found where highly protective and over-bearing unions meet a school district that it equally unwilling to tolerate such faculty.

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